Noam Chomsky interviewed by Peter J

Noam Chomsky interviewed by Peter Jay
The Jay Interview, July 25, 1976
QUESTION: Professor Chomsky, perhaps we should start by trying to define what is not meant by anarchism -- the word anarchy is derived, after all, from the Greek, literally meaning "no government." Now, presumably people who talk about anarchy or anarchism as a system of political philosophy don't just mean that, as it were, as of January 1st next year, government as we now understand it will suddenly cease; there would be no police, no rules of the road, no laws, no tax collectors, no post office, and so forth. Presumably, it means something more complicated than that.
CHOMSKY: Well, yes to some of those questions, no to others. They may very well mean no policemen, but I don't think they would mean no rules of the road. In fact, I should say to begin with that the term anarchism is used to cover quite a range of political ideas, but I would prefer to think of it as the libertarian left, and from that point of view anarchism can be conceived as a kind of voluntary socialism, that is, as libertarian socialist or anarcho-syndicalist or communist anarchist, in the tradition of, say, Bakunin and Kropotkin and others. They had in mind a highly organized form of society, but a society that was organized on the basis of organic units, organic communities. And generally, they meant by that the workplace and the neighborhood, and from those two basic units there could derive through federal arrangements a highly integrated kind of social organization which might be national or even international in scope. And these decisions could be made over a substantial range, but by delegates who are always part of the organic community from which they come, to which they return, and in which, in fact, they live.
QUESTION: So it doesn't mean a society in which there is, literally speaking, no government, so much as a society in which the primary source of authority comes, as it were, from the bottom up, and not the top down. Whereas representative democracy, as we have it in the United States and in Britain, would be regarded as a from-the-top-down authority, even though ultimately the voters decide.
CHOMSKY: Representative democracy, as in, say, the United States or Great Britain, would be criticized by an anarchist of this school on two grounds. First of all because there is a monopoly of power centralized in the state, and secondly -- and critically -- because the representative democracy is limited to the political sphere and in no serious way encroaches on the economic sphere. Anarchists of this tradition have always held that democratic control of one's productive life is at the core of any serious human liberation, or, for that matter, of any significant democratic practice. That is, as long as individuals are compelled to rent themselves on the market to those who are willing to hire them, as long as their role in production is simply that of ancillary tools, then there are striking elements of coercion and oppression that make talk of democracy very limited, if even meaningful.
QUESTION: Historically speaking, have there been any sustained examples on any substantial scale of societies which approximated to the anarchist ideal?
CHOMSKY: There are small societies, small in number, that I think have done so quite well, and there are a few examples of large scale libertarian revolutions which were largely anarchist in their structure. As to the first, small societies extending over a long period, I myself think the most dramatic example is perhaps the Israeli kibbutzim, which for a long period really were constructed on anarchist principles, that is: self-management, direct worker control, integration of agriculture, industry, service, personal participation in self-management. And they were, I should think, extraordinarily successful by almost any measure that one can impose.
QUESTION: But they were presumably, and still are, in the framework of a conventional state whi

Hasil (Bahasa Indonesia) 1:

Noam Chomsky diwawancarai oleh Peter JayWawancara Jay, 25 Juli 1976PERTANYAAN: Profesor Chomsky, mungkin kita harus mulai dengan mencoba untuk menentukan apa tidak dimaksudkan oleh Anarkisme--anarki kata berasal, setelah semua, dari bahasa Yunani, secara harfiah berarti "tidak pemerintah." Sekarang, mungkin orang-orang yang berbicara tentang anarki atau Anarkisme seperti sistem filsafat politik tidak hanya berarti bahwa, seolah-olah, pada tanggal 1 Januari tahun depan, pemerintah seperti sekarang kita mengerti akan tiba-tiba berhenti; akan ada polisi tidak, tidak ada aturan jalan, ada hukum, tidak adanya pemungut, ada kantor pos, dan sebagainya. Agaknya, itu berarti sesuatu yang lebih rumit dari itu.CHOMSKY: Yah, ya ke beberapa pertanyaan-pertanyaan, tidak untuk orang lain. Mereka sangat baik mungkin berarti polisi tidak, tapi saya tidak berpikir mereka akan berarti tidak ada aturan jalan. Bahkan, saya harus mengatakan untuk mulai dengan itu Anarkisme istilah digunakan untuk menutupi berbagai ide-ide politik, tapi aku lebih suka berpikir itu sebagai libertarian kiri, dan dari sudut pandang Anarkisme dapat dipahami sebagai semacam sukarela sosialisme, yaitu sebagai Sosialis libertarian atau metode atau Anarkis Komunis, dalam tradisi , mengatakan, Bakunin dan Kropotkin dan yang lainnya. Mereka memiliki bentuk yang sangat terorganisir dari masyarakat, tapi masyarakat yang diselenggarakan berdasarkan unit organik, organik masyarakat. Dan pada umumnya, mereka dimaksudkan oleh tempat kerja dan lingkungan, dan dari kedua unit dasar tidak bisa berasal melalui federal pengaturan semacam sangat terpadu organisasi sosial yang mungkin nasional atau internasional dalam lingkup. Dan keputusan ini dapat dibuat atas berbagai substansial, tetapi oleh delegasi yang selalu bagian dari komunitas organik itu dari yang mereka datang, yang mereka kembali dan di mana, pada kenyataannya, mereka hidup.PERTANYAAN: Jadi tidak berarti sebuah masyarakat di mana ada, secara harfiah berbicara, tidak ada pemerintah, begitu banyak sebagai sebuah masyarakat yang datang sumber utama dari otoritas, seolah-olah, dari bawah ke atas, dan bukan atas ke bawah. Sedangkan demokrasi perwakilan, seperti yang kita ada di Amerika Serikat dan di Britania, akan dianggap sebagai otoritas dari-the-top-down, meskipun pada akhirnya memutuskan pemilih.CHOMSKY: Demokrasi perwakilan, seperti dalam, katakanlah, Amerika Serikat atau Inggris, akan dikritik oleh seorang anarkis ini sekolah di dua taman. Pertama-tama karena ada monopoli kekuasaan terpusat di negara bagian, dan kedua--dan kritis--karena demokrasi perwakilan terbatas bidang politik dan sama sekali tidak serius encroaches pada bidang ekonomi. Anarkis tradisi ini selalu memegang bahwa Demokrat mengendalikan hidup produktif merupakan inti apapun pembebasan manusia yang serius, atau, untuk itu, setiap praktek demokrasi yang signifikan. Yaitu sebagai individu yang dipaksa untuk sewa sendiri pada pasar untuk mereka yang bersedia untuk mempekerjakan mereka, asalkan mereka berperan dalam produksi adalah hanya bahwa alat-alat tambahan, kemudian ada yang mencolok elemen paksaan dan penindasan yang membuat berbicara demokrasi sangat terbatas, jika bahkan bermakna.PERTANYAAN: Secara historis berbicara, Apakah ada setiap contoh yang berkelanjutan pada setiap skala besar dari masyarakat yang diperkirakan untuk anarkis yang ideal?CHOMSKY: There are small societies, small in number, that I think have done so quite well, and there are a few examples of large scale libertarian revolutions which were largely anarchist in their structure. As to the first, small societies extending over a long period, I myself think the most dramatic example is perhaps the Israeli kibbutzim, which for a long period really were constructed on anarchist principles, that is: self-management, direct worker control, integration of agriculture, industry, service, personal participation in self-management. And they were, I should think, extraordinarily successful by almost any measure that one can impose.QUESTION: But they were presumably, and still are, in the framework of a conventional state whi